Man, Myth & Magic versus Timeship

Art by Clyde Caldwell

The contents of Dragon #80 (December 1983) offer a glimpse into the state of gaming as it was three decades ago.  The “Dungeon Master's Familiar” article provides the entire code for a program intended to facilitate AD&D combat.

This program was written to run on a Radio Shack TRS-80, but it can be used easily in any computer that uses a variation of Microsoft BASIC.  To use the automated combat segment, you need a disk drive...

In his introduction to the issue, Kim Mohan presents submission guidelines for computer programs.  He explains that programs should not be extensive...

...even if they're good, because most people couldn't cram them into their 16K or 32K systems.  We'll look at programs for 48K or 64K systems, but they'll only be accepted if they need to be that long.

What a difference 31 years makes.

The “How many coins in a coffer?” article goes into profound detail about numismatic dimensions, metallic impurities, specific gravities, and – for some reason – the speed of light.  Regardless, the author concedes that – for the sake of playability – “all coins are the same size (diameter and thickness) and weigh a tenth of a pound each.”  This is acceptable because AD&D™represents fantasy, not reality.  Good to know:  “...the figure for a loose coin is 110% of the effective volume of a stacked coin...”

One article, “Five keys to DMing success,” has the sub-title, “Reducing the work, increasing the fun.”  Huh?  Less work?  More fun?  How baffling!  Must be old school.

In any event, the purpose of this post is not to analyze old issues of gaming magazines; your humble host surrenders that task to bloggers greater than himself.  This post compares and contrasts the games Timeship and Man, Myth & Magic.  It just so happens that Dragon #80 contains reviews for both games.  It just so happens that both reviews were written by the same person – Ken Rolston.  (The same issue has another review by Rolston as well as an article he wrote on how to write game reviews.)  Here is an opportunity to see how a (professional) reviewer perceived both games at a time when those games were still in print.  In short, Rolston's verdict was:  MM&M, thumbs down; Timeship, thumbs up.  These are similar games from the same creator, yet the assessments were contradictory.  Why?

Rolston did not consider Timeship to be without flaws.  He recommended the game “[d]espite its weaknesses in game design” and notwithstanding his contentions that “the organization of the rules is confusing and the style is occasionally unpalatable.”  Rolston expressed similar misgivings for MM&M but was unable to overlook them when establishing his opinion of that game.

With regard to rules, Rolston wrote:

The term used locally to describe the level of sophistication of the mechanics of Timeship is “goofyworld,” a generally positive term suggesting wild and crazy action, with fast-and-loose judgements left pretty much in the hands of the referee, under the assumption that there is little competitive pressure and that the referee is basically out to show the players a good time.

Herbie Brennan expressed similar sentiments in the advice section of Man, Myth & Magic.  While Rolston commented that Brennan's advice was “practical and intelligent,” he did not believe it was “successfully translated” for MM&M.  Still, Rolston stated with regard to MM&M, “In fairness, I suspect a skilled gamesmaster could make the rule system and scenarios work...”

Rolston felt that the time-travel premise of Timeship reflected “the stuff of thousands of daydreams and fantasy adventure stories.”  Man, Myth & Magic, on the other hand, did not conform to any “literary adventure genre models” nor was it an “historical simulation game [although] it makes no claim to be.”

Was premise the deciding factor in Rolston's opinion?  He wrote:

Whatever reservations I might have had originally about Timeship were dispelled when I playtested the game with our local weekly gaming circle.  I don't believe I've seen FRP gamers have so much fun in years.  Everyone was quite enthusiastic about the concept of the game, and the players were quite willing to overlook any faults in the rules...As a gamesmaster, I was surprised at how smoothly the session ran, despite my original impression...

Regarding Man, Myth & Magic, however, Rolston “never felt tempted to playtest the game...”

Ultimately, Rolston praised Timeship for simple mechanics, accessibility to non-gamers, and the “marvelously fertile” genre of time travel.  He faults MM&M for poor execution (“not up to industry standards”) and a lack of innovation.  Perhaps if Rolston had the experience of playing MM&M – especially with a skilled gamesmaster – he might have been more inclined to forgive its flaws as he did with Timeship.  Perhaps not.  If a game lacks sufficient appeal even to want to play it, then it has failed on a fundamental level of engagement.  Evidently, a game with “historically implausible party composition” did not appeal to Rolston, nor did it particularly appeal to RPG consumers of the time.  As Rolston queried, “[W]hat would a Hebrew priest, a British apothecary, and an Egyptian warrior be doing together in the first place?”

Well, they could try walking into a bar.

Interview: Stephen Peek

J. Stephen Peek was a game designer for Yaquinto.  He is credited with several board/war games, but more importantly (for purposes of this blog) he was the developer of Man, Myth & Magic and co-developer of The Egyptian Trilogy.  Recently, he was gracious enough to answer a few questions...

Thoul's Paradise:  MM&M was Yaquinto's first RPG.  What was the impetus for entering the RPG market?

Stephen Peek:  During this period Role Playing games, (read as Dungeons & Dragons) were rising to dominate the hobby gaming industry.  War games required each player to read and fully understand tedious and long game rules.  Role playing required one player to understand the rules and be the game master.  The rest of the players in the group only had to understand the aspects of their character for the adventure.  Other companies were beginning to compete with Dungeons and we needed a game that allowed us to jump into the market.

TP:  Why did Yaquinto go with MM&M as its first RPG and not some other game/genre (Timeship, for instance)?

SP:  Herbie approached us with Man, Myth and Magic.  We loved the idea that it was rooted in history and ancient mysteries instead of pure fantasy.  Herbie offered us Timeship sometime later.

TP:  You have a “developed by” credit.  In collaborating with Herbie Brennan, how did you influence the game?

SP:  Herbie had created a great game system.  What I tried to do was expand the world in Man, Myth & Magic so that it had a better chance of competing with D&D which had, by that time, an enormous world for gamers.

TP:  The setting for the original Man, Myth & Magic rules was circa AD 41.  The Egyptian Trilogy allowed for campaigns in 1375 BC.  Were there any long range plans to adapt the rules for other times and/or places?  Were there any times and/or places you would have liked to address?

SP:  Eventually Man, Myth & Magic would have allowed players to play in any historical period through the middle ages.  Targets would have been:  The Hollow Earth, Mu, Incas, Maya, a Lost City series and a few others were on the drawing board.

TP:  I doubt you would remember this from thirty years ago, but the nerd in me is compelled to ask.  Page 14 of MM&M Book II states:

Distant Memory is a very important concept in ADVANCED MM&M. It is the key to the ultimate character – a skilled, experienced amalgamation of all classes; and the ONLY character entitled to strive toward the final goal of ADVANCED MM&M.

What was the “final goal”?

SP:  The premise was that once an advanced character died there was a Distant Memory role for his next incarnation.  Only high level characters had a chance of achieving the Distant Memory roll.  If the player did then his next incarnation possessed his own newly created skills plus a percentage of skills from the previous character.

TP:  Several Yaquinto games (including your own Mythology) command respectable sums on E-Bay.  What is the feasibility of reprinting some of these games?

SP:  Zero from me.  Yaquinto was purchased a few years ago by Carte Mundi and I don't think they have an interest in these old games.

Thanks you for your interest.

MacGuffins, Plot Devices & Bric-a-brac

Plate 10 from The Book of Talismans, Amulets and Zodiacal Gems

When 'incarnated', an Advanced Man, Myth & Magic character receives an inheritance.  I suppose only the first incarnation receives an inheritance given that equipment is retained when a character is reincarnated.  However, there is no rule that addresses this and a new inheritance that somehow shows up with each incarnation is no stranger than the MM&M 'reincarnation' process itself.  By rolling percentile dice, the inheritance table “will tell you which of your ancestors remembered you and how much you receive.”

There is a 4% chance that your grandfather has bequeathed to you a:

7 pound piece of fallen star (meteorite); [worth] 300 Lbr.)[sic](If piece is melted into sword it will have a plus 15 to damage).

Whether or not this grandfather is maternal or paternal is not stated.  However, the table lists another grandfather who provides (also at a 4% chance) a silver helmet complete with horns (worth 100 libra) and a ruby (worth 500 libra).  It seems both the maternal and paternal branches are included, but not specified.  One of your aunts might give you “Seven vials of rare spices (150 libra each).”  Your other aunt – perhaps the crazy one – might leave you 200 libra and a leopard skin.  If your father really loves you (1% chance) you will get “10,000 Libra and the Emperor's Seal.”  Otherwise, there's a 4% chance he will give you a suit of legionnaire armor (complete) and 200 libra or (another 4% chance) 500 libra, a broadsword, a dagger, and a Greek helmet.

The 'ancestors' on the inheritance table are related to the character (Older Sister, God Mother, etc.) with the exception of Livia the Poisoner, a non-player character from a couple of the adventures.  (I guess she could be a relative, but the familial tie is not given.)  There is a 4% chance that Livia will leave you:  500 libra, a blowpipe, one hundred darts, and – true to her epithet – a bottle of cobra venom.

Yaquinto's The Egyptian Trilogy was marketed as “A TRIPLE Adventure Module for use with Man, Myth & Magic.”  It is also a 'system expansion' or sourcebook.  The setting of the MM&M rules is AD 41 (or thereabouts), but The Egyptian Trilogy module takes place in 1375 BC.  As such, the book provides nationalities, classes, rules, etc. appropriate for that era, including an inheritance table.  The 'ancestors' include the relatives from the original table (other than godparents), but also includes 'ancestors' such as Ex-Lover, Childhood Friend, Tribal Hetman, Priest, and Hunter.  Your uncle might give you sixty ounces of silver, a bow, a quiver of thirty arrows, and a vial of five applications of curare.  Your other uncle might give you a copper poleaxe, an iron-tipped spear, and a bronze helmet.  There is a 4% possibility that your ex-lover will leave you a leather kilt and a lethal dose of hemlock.  (I wonder if that's supposed to send some kind of message.)

The MM&M inheritance table provides characters with starting equipment and/or money.  The items can also be plot hooks.  What was your uncle doing with an “African Ju-Ju Bone”?  A spool of golden thread is worth 500 libra, but first you need to find someone who will buy it.  Why would “the Hunter” leave you his magical bow and magical charm?  What's the story behind the silver chalice your cousin left you?

In the recently released D&D Basic Rules we see a similar 'plot hook generator' with the 'Trinkets table' (which I find reminiscent of 1E Gamma World's 'Treasure List').  The table takes up two pages, with more than half of the second page blank.  Surely, the Trinkets table is not necessary for the Basic Rules; they could have used those pages for a couple of additional backgrounds or a detailed example of play or an index or more passages from that literary genius R. A. Salvatore.  While not necessary, the Trinkets table does something important – it connects (however faintly) the character with the setting in a unique way.  It shouldn't be the only connection, but it may be the first.  Anything that spurs the imagination is worthwhile.

The Trinkets table “can help stock a room in a dungeon or fill a creature's pockets.”  The problem with this is that some trinkets are more appropriate as contents for a monster's pocket than as possessions of a player character.  Why would a player character walk around with a “rope necklace from which dangles four mummified elf fingers” (Trinket #9) or a “glass jar containing a weird bit of flesh floating in pickling fluid” (Trinket #20)?  Why would you keep a “small idol...that gives you unsettling dreams when you sleep near it” (Trinket #8)?  Some things useful for dungeon room/monster pocket stocking should be in a Dungeon Curios table and not a 'player character possession' Trinket table.

Most of the Trinket table items are unusual, but some are not.  Trinket #41 is a “scrap of cloth from an old banner.”  That's an example of a trophy from the Soldier background; it shouldn't be a “trinket.”  On the other hand, perhaps there should be a separate Trinket table for each background.  (I'm ambivalent about Trinket #29, “A pair of old socks.”)

I notice possible product placement with trinket #46, “A dead sprite inside a clear glass bottle.”  (Get it?  A bottle of Sprite!  Haha!)

Trinket #99 is “A wooden box with a ceramic bottom that holds a living worm with a head on each end of its body.”  I wonder if this is an allusion to one of Sherlock Holmes' “unsolved” cases; namely, “that of Isadora Persano, the well-known journalist and duellist, who was found stark staring mad with a match box in front of him which contained a remarkable worm said to be unknown to science.”  (“The Problem of Thor Bridge”)

A Role Playing Game of Man's Greatest Adventures

Art by Ephraim Moshe Lilien

Man, Myth & Magic is a fantasy role playing game set in the ancient world.  A world not seen from our modern perception; but rather through the eyes of the people who lived it.  A world filled with magic and sorcery, demons and monsters, and incredible powers and forces that hold the key to the domination of mankind.

The game is Man, Myth & Magic and it's a “role playing game of man's greatest adventures.”  This does not mean that MM&M is misogynistic – two character classes are available only to female characters – but that player characters may only be human (with one arguable exception).  The setting is not some fantasy realm populated by elves, dwarves, and whatnot; it is the ancient world seen “through the eyes of the people who lived it.”  (I feel that RuneQuest did a better job of evoking the ancient world paradigm, but that hardly invalidates MM&M.)

An important aspect of the 'ancient world paradigm' is magic – perhaps the most important aspect with regard to RPGs.  (After all, it is Man, Myth & Magic.)  Book II devotes a half-page to an essay on magic which states “...some magic worked, at least some of the time...Why magic worked is another question; and one that doesn't have a single answer.”  The essay then discusses five 'reasons' why magic worked:

• Magic as Coincidence

Somebody laid a curse and the next day the victim walked over a cliff.  The fact that the victim was blind drunk at the time cut no ice with anybody; it was the curse that did it.

• Magic as Science

“Magical” swords made from Damascus steel were a case in point.  You forged as good a blade as you could, then heated it until it was red hot then plunged it into the body of the nearest human being.  According to the theory, the victim's soul passed into the sword and made it work better in battle...Swords treated this way were harder and stayed sharper longer.  (The reason was the absorption of carbon molecules by the heated steel.  When it was finally discovered you could get exactly the same effect by plunging the blade into a water barrel full of old cow hides, people became a lot less wary of blacksmiths.)

• Magic as Psychic Phenomena

The human mind has always been full of odd powers which surface now and then...

• Magic as Trance State

If a person in a trance state – perhaps augmented by “psychedelic mushrooms” – believed he was flying, then “the experience was valid enough,” especially if other mushroom consumers imagined he was flying.

• Magic as Lost Knowledge

...it has to be admitted the Ancients knew a thing or two that we've forgotten.  Those old Egyptians, for example, knew how to grow multicoloured cotton...Maybe in that body of lost knowledge there were more dramatic discoveries.

The essay neglects to touch upon the power of suggestion as a 'reason' for why magic worked.  Even in our enlightened age, believers in such practices as Santería and Vodou feel the effects of magic because of their belief; magic is part of the cultural construct in which they live.

Thus we have a rationale for the 'why' of magic, yet the 'how' of magic eludes us.  Perhaps that's the point; if it didn't elude us, it wouldn't be magic.  Regardless, we have a better appreciation of the ancient 'mindset' toward magic – not as a rubric of duration, effects, and saving throws, but as mysterious circumstance, awesome and frightening.

Interview with Herbie Brennan

signed by "C.A. Millan"

Yaquinto Publications managed to publish a decent selection of games during its brief existence, including a handful of role-playing games. Two of these RPGs – Man, Myth & Magic and Timeship – were designed (or co-designed) by accomplished author Herbie Brennan.  Mr Brennan has been gracious enough to answer a few questions about these games for this blog.

Thoul's Paradise:  First, what lead you to create Man, Myth & Magic and Timeship?  How did Yaquinto become the publisher?

Herbie Brennan:  I was having a wonderful time with FRP games (mainly Dungeons and Dragons, a bit of Runequest and something called Boot Hill) when I got it into my head that I’d like to create one of my own based on time travel, a theme that still fascinates me to this day. So I put together Timeship. I’d seen Yaquinto games advertised in several FRP magazines and thought the name sounded cool, so I submitted the project to them. I got a reply from the then President of Yaquinto Games, Steve Peek, who said he liked Timeship and wanted to publish it, but he thought my first move into this market should be in the area of fantasy, which was a proven seller, and proposed that we collaborate on creating Man, Myth and Magic. I jumped at the chance. As far as I can remember, Steve and I created the game system together, and wrote half the scenarios each. It was the start of a lifelong friendship. (Steve’s now out of the gaming industry and busy writing fabulous novels: you’ll find them on Kindle.)

Steve published Man, Myth and Magic first then Timeship several months later. Timeship got the most player reactions and Steve had so many people phoning he had to instruct his secretary to ‘tell them to call back yesterday.’ The fans loved that. A Texas software company called Five Star hired a 14-year-old to convert it into a computer game. This was right at the beginning of the computer game industry so the end product was a sort of text adventure with illustrations, pretty leading edge for the time.

TP:  What lead to the game being called Man, Myth & Magic ?  I can appreciate the alliteration, but there was already a magazine/encyclopedia by that name.  Why not Myth & Magic or Magic & Myth or even Leprechauns & Gladiators ?

HB:  That one was completely down to Steve, as instigator of the joint project. When he called me with the name, I pointed out that it was the name of a very successful partwork. He argued that we were in a completely different field of activity so it didn’t matter. I was a bit uneasy, but he was the publisher...

TP:  One of the innovative features of Man, Myth, & Magic is the concept of “Special Categories”  – a player, through his or her own skill, can adopt the “meta-role” of Sage and/or Orator.  Can you comment as to how the “Special Categories” concept was developed?

HB:  I didn’t even remember special categories until you mentioned them and I still can’t really remember them now, so I’ve no idea how the concept was developed. As a broad principle, though, Steve and I bounced ideas back and forth by letter (this was the pre-email age, of course) then refined the ones that looked useful. I’d imagine special categories came out of this process, driven by a need to do something a little different to existing role play games.

TP:  At the time M, M & M was published, most other RPGs had an 'experience' system through which characters could improve.  M, M & M had something different  – POWER  – which served as experience as well as a 'fuel' for spells and abilities.  Ultimately, POWER was used by characters for re-incarnation.  Do you recall how the POWER and re-incarnation concepts originated?

HB:  One of the aims of MM&M was to create a game that was a little different to the rest and also, if I had anything to do with it, simplified the gaming system. (Even at that time I was convinced most RPGs were too complicated and game systems often got in the way of players’ enjoyment.) The POWER concept was a way of combining the EXPERIENCE points with spell drivers like MANA, CHARISMA or what have you, thus eliminating one more thing for players to worry about.

The use of POWER for reincarnation emerged directly out of my interest in reincarnation. I spent some thirty years engaged in reincarnation research, mainly hypnotic regression, and produced two books on the subject: Five Keys to Past Lives and Discover Reincarnation (a.k.a. The Reincarnation Workbook.) A good FRP system closely mimics real life and in some instances can provide interesting insights into how the world works. I wanted to see what benefits/problems a reincarnation factor would provide in a game context and thus supply clues as to how reincarnation might work itself out in life.

TP:  The notion of hypnotic regression is an interesting one.  Parts of the 'Great Ritual of the Timeship' seem conducive to hypnosis, especially the dimmed lights and the gateway 'visualization'.  Was this intentional?

HB:  I’m afraid the inspiration for the dimmed lights and gateway was more disreputable than hypnotic regression. I drew it from an esoteric technique known as pathworking. It doesn’t involve hypnosis, but the original pathworking (not the modified form I introduced into the game) can sometimes induce trance in particularly susceptible subjects. Interestingly enough, my experience of role play, led me years later to develop what I called the Atlantis technique which is a specific type of pathworking designed to stimulate archetypal elements in the psyche. I wasn’t aware of it at the time, but looking back, I suspect the Timeship ritual may have been an important root of this technique.

TP:  Timeship offered three adventure “capsules.”  Another adventure, The Werewolf of Europe (also suitable for M, M & M), was published separately.  Can you describe any other capsules that you used with your players?  Were there any you wished had been published?

HB:  The original business idea was to create two popular game systems then feed them with an open-ended series of adventure modules for as long as there was a market for them. MM&M was published first and Steve and I between us created a goodly number of modules to give it the best springboard into the market. Unfortunately the project didn’t achieve the sales we hoped, so we were more cautious in our approach to Timeship. The second game sold better than the first (in my view because it was a more original idea) but still not well enough to justify the creation of any modules beyond the ones you mentioned. No regrets and I’m delighted all this led to a lifelong friendship with Steve, but I can’t pretend either game was a runaway success.

TP:  If Timeship had been more successful, what sort of capsules would you have liked to publish?

HB:  I’ve long been interested in the scientific possibility of time travel and wrote a serious book on the subject some years ago. So I’ve often thought about what eras I’d most like to visit if time travel ever became a reality. Those would definitely have been the experiences I’d have turned into Timeship modules. My top choices would have been 1) The building of the Great Pyramid, 2) The Crucifixion, 3) The destruction of the dinosaurs 4) the sinking of Atlantis. Those modules would all have involved trips into the past. I’d also have tried two trips to the future with 1) a module built around humanity’s first contact with an alien life form and 2) an exploration of the Face on Mars (postulating an ancient civilisation on that planet.)

TP:  In Timeship, you adopt the conceit that you translated Sumerian cuneiform from manuscripts discovered by “Professor Mauzer.”  Was Mauzer entirely a product of your imagination or was he based – however loosely – on someone of your acquaintance?  What about Mauzer's colleagues (Bord and Speir)?  Are you prepared to reveal the details of “Professor Mauzer's tragic death”?

HB:  As best I can remember, I made them all up. Reference to somebody’s ‘tragic death’ is an old literary trick of mine. It gives the reader the impression of a whole back story without my having to bother actually to write one. I can, however, reveal that in this instance, Mauzer’s tragic death was occasioned by a bus falling on him.

TP:  You write about the TIMESHIP culture as though it died out long ago; however, since we are dealing with time travel, extinction is relative.  For all we know, the culture might not exist until some point in the future.  What relation (if any) does the TIMESHIP culture have with the Time Traveller's Guild?  What does the Time Traveller's Guild actually do?

HB:  Good point. A physicist friend of mine, Fred Alan Wolf, once told me it’s theoretically possible to build a time machine by lashing together ten neutron stars to form a (slightly lumpy) rod. Their combined gravitational field distorts time and space in such a way that it creates areas where you can fly your spaceship into the past and future respectively. The point here is that if this gizmo is ever built by a future technology, it will instantly and simultaneously exist throughout the whole of time. So concepts like a 'past' culture become essentially meaningless. Furthermore, since we know next to nothing about the nature of time, the possibility exists that it is circular, so you will eventually arrive at the same point in time whichever way you travel. The culture of the Timeship and the Guild are linked in that it’s a bit pointless having a Time Traveller’s Guild before you have time travel. In the world of Timeship, the Guild came into being as soon as time travel became popular and inexpensive. The purpose of the Guild is to look after the interests of time travellers (‘everywhere and everywhen’ as it says in their brochure) and provide them with travel insurance if and when they need it.

TP:  One of the interesting things about Timeship is the concept of Wild Talents.  The 'Timelord Screen' states that “Wild Talents manifest rarely; but once manifested remain with the player forever.”  However, the Rule Book implies that Wild Talents can only exist within a given capsule.  What is the final word?

HB:  They stay with you forever.

TP:  Back to M, M &M, in your 'How to Become the All-Time Greatest Lore Master of the Known Universe', you mention that one group of playtesters insisted on travelling to Colchester.  Do you recall this incident?  Do you recall what occurred to the playtest party?

HB:  I can’t remember this at all now: can’t even remember the playtesting generally. But I suspect I was being coy when I said the group insisted on visiting Colchester. For a long time I suspected I had a past life as a Roman living in Colchester, so I imagine I was looking for an excuse to visit it. Which I did eventually, but without stirring any memories.

TP:  Have you considered making M, M & M and/or Timeship available again as print-on-demand products?

HB:  I’d certainly be happy if a nice publisher appeared and offered me a contract, but the thought of tackling the job myself would fill me with horror, given my current work load.

TP:  Thank you for taking the time to respond to these questions and best of luck in your future endeavors.